Episode 139

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Published on:

25th Sep 2025

A Sense-Making Odyssey, Part 2: Jordan Peterson, John Vervaeke & Jordan Hall

Matt and Chris once again take up their oars and plunge deeper into the recursive whirlpools of contemporary sensemaking. Picking up where Part 1 left off, having grappled with conscience, touchstones, hierarchies, and normativity, we return to the sensemaking labyrinth to see just how many more words and concepts the combined powers of Peterson, Vervaeke, and Hall can stretch to breaking point.

This second leg of the voyage allows us to chart more of the universal sensemaking grammar, with its biblical scaffolding, liberal use of metaphors, and frequent exhortations to ascend Jacob’s ladder. But alongside Peterson's predictable biblical musings, you can also thrill at unexpected treats like John Vervaeke unveiling how finite transcendence connects to inexhaustible intelligibility and Jordan Hall explaining that even silence can be a form of sensemaking.

Expect symbolic snakes, dangling ropes, and ecological psychology refashioned for mystical ascent, Augustine rediscovered through Plato, and culture reframed as an alcoholic parent. Or if you prefer, enjoy detours into atheists and their Luciferian egos, the sacred role of play, and the profound revelations that can be drawn from childhood disappointments at McDonald’s and grandfathers complaining about Nixonian duplicity

So join us for the final leg of the Sensemaking Odyssey. Sharpen your mind, get ready to traverse through 3D space, and prepare for an encounter with the Logos... in the context of listening to a podcast.

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About the Podcast

Decoding the Gurus
A psychologist and an anthropologist try to make sense of the world's greatest self-declared Gurus.
An exiled Northern Irish anthropologist and a hitchhiking Australian psychologist take a close look at the contemporary crop of 'secular gurus', iconoclasts, and other exiles from the mainstream, offering their own brands of unique takes and special insights.

Leveraging two of the most diverse accents in modern podcasting, Chris and Matt dig deep into the claims, peek behind the psychological curtains, and try to figure out once and for all... What's it all About?

Join us, as we try to puzzle our way through and talk some smart-sounding smack about the intellectual giants of our age, from Jordan Peterson to Robin DiAngelo. Are they revolutionary thinkers or just grifters with delusions of grandeur?

Join us and let's find out!
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About your hosts

Christopher Kavanagh

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A Northern Irish cognitive anthropologist who occasionally moonlights as a social psychologist. Chris has long standing interests in the psychology of conspiracy theorists and pseudoscience. His academic research focuses on the Cognitive Science of Religion and ritual psychology. He lives happily in Japan with his family.

Matthew Browne

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An Australian psychologist and numbers-guy. He does research on all kinds of stuff, but particularly enjoys looking into why people believe the things they do: religion, conspiracy theories, alternative medicine and stuff. He's into social media in the same way people slow down for car accidents.